The Downfall of Adam// LOTR// Mighty to Save: A Call for Humility
Before I say anything (I don't know how long I have your attention span for because I find the last portion of this post the most important), if you haven't heard 'Mighty to Save' please listen to it:
Mighty to Save
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I don't like to quote books but I found John Eldredge's take was helpful in understanding men better who are more prone to fall into the sins of pornography:
Why is pornography the most addictive thing in the universe for men? Certainly there’s the fact that a man is visually wired, that pictures and images arouse men much more than they do women. But the deeper reason is because that seductive beauty reaches down inside and touches your desperate hunger for validation as a man you didn’t even know you had, touches it like nothing else most men have ever experienced. You must understand- this is deeper than legs and breasts and good sex. It is mythological. Look at the lengths men will go to find the golden-haired woman. They have fought duels over her beauty, they have fought wars. You see, ever man remembers Eve. We are haunted by her. And somehow we believe that if we could find her, get her back, then we’d also recover with her our own lost masculinity. P91
Most men want the maiden without any sort of cost to themselves. They want all the joys of the beauty without any of the woes of the battle. This is the sinister nature of pornography- enjoying the woman at her expense. Pornography is what happens when a man insists on being energized by a woman, he uses her to get a feeling that he is a man. It is a false strength, as I’ve said, because it depends on an outside source rather than emanating from deep within his center. And it is the paragon of selfishness. He offers nothing and takes everything. P187
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I want to watch some LOTR. I just want to watch the final scene where Samwise Gamgee makes a speech about how much evil there is yet with every new day there is hope- there is light and life. It's one of the most moving speeches I've ever heard- LOTR is so amazing because in the darkest of times, we see the beauty of friendship, fellowship, courage and hope.
I want to be assured that there is still hope in this desolate world.
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Mighty to Save: A Call for Humility
Everyone needs compassion
A love that's never failing
Let mercy fall on me
Everyone needs forgiveness
A kindness of a Savior
The hope of nations
...
So take me as You find me
All my fears and failures
Fill my life again
I give my life to follow
Everything i believe in
Now i surrender
This song literally moves me to tears.
I didn't see it before but I've realized how judgmental Christians are. In their pursuit for holiness, they ridicule the very people they are trying to bring to Christ and isolating members of the body who struggle in certain sins and are trying to break free yet are too afraid to voice out their weaknesses because they fear they will be looked down upon. We create barriers among the body of the church with our high standards by teasing, laughing and judging at certain sins and instilling fear into those who struggle in those issues who fear of being subjected to such ridicule. They may laugh with you for fear of being rejected yet secretly hold hearts heavily ladened with guilt. How are they supposed to be vulnerable if you snear at the very thing that plagues them most?
Do you understand the extent of what we've done with our 'mere' words?
And I realized that though other Christians may look down on me for what I've done, I learned that God truly takes me with all my fears and failures giving me acceptance and hope. He reminds me of my mistakes and knocks me off the 'holier than thou' pedestal before I try to climb on it to cast judgment on everyone else. Honestly, I find it extremely difficult to open up to Christians because I'm afraid they'll judge me- don't tell me that I'm just not trusting. I hear what people say in church and it makes me want to hide from everyone.
There is good in the broken:
Who is better to help the alcoholic than the one who conquered the power of wine? Who is better to help the struggling anorexic than one who has gone through eating problems and conquered?
Who is better to help the abused than the one who suffered from being abused themself?
We always said that God uses the broken to heal the broken. How true it is! Yet we lack the understanding. So let us come with humbled hearts, acknowledging our own downfalls, lay down our pride and come to Him with the confidence knowing that He will accept us as we are.
Mighty to Save
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't like to quote books but I found John Eldredge's take was helpful in understanding men better who are more prone to fall into the sins of pornography:
Why is pornography the most addictive thing in the universe for men? Certainly there’s the fact that a man is visually wired, that pictures and images arouse men much more than they do women. But the deeper reason is because that seductive beauty reaches down inside and touches your desperate hunger for validation as a man you didn’t even know you had, touches it like nothing else most men have ever experienced. You must understand- this is deeper than legs and breasts and good sex. It is mythological. Look at the lengths men will go to find the golden-haired woman. They have fought duels over her beauty, they have fought wars. You see, ever man remembers Eve. We are haunted by her. And somehow we believe that if we could find her, get her back, then we’d also recover with her our own lost masculinity. P91
Most men want the maiden without any sort of cost to themselves. They want all the joys of the beauty without any of the woes of the battle. This is the sinister nature of pornography- enjoying the woman at her expense. Pornography is what happens when a man insists on being energized by a woman, he uses her to get a feeling that he is a man. It is a false strength, as I’ve said, because it depends on an outside source rather than emanating from deep within his center. And it is the paragon of selfishness. He offers nothing and takes everything. P187
---------------------------------------------------------
I want to watch some LOTR. I just want to watch the final scene where Samwise Gamgee makes a speech about how much evil there is yet with every new day there is hope- there is light and life. It's one of the most moving speeches I've ever heard- LOTR is so amazing because in the darkest of times, we see the beauty of friendship, fellowship, courage and hope.
I want to be assured that there is still hope in this desolate world.
---------------------------------------------------------
Mighty to Save: A Call for Humility
Everyone needs compassion
A love that's never failing
Let mercy fall on me
Everyone needs forgiveness
A kindness of a Savior
The hope of nations
...
So take me as You find me
All my fears and failures
Fill my life again
I give my life to follow
Everything i believe in
Now i surrender
This song literally moves me to tears.
I didn't see it before but I've realized how judgmental Christians are. In their pursuit for holiness, they ridicule the very people they are trying to bring to Christ and isolating members of the body who struggle in certain sins and are trying to break free yet are too afraid to voice out their weaknesses because they fear they will be looked down upon. We create barriers among the body of the church with our high standards by teasing, laughing and judging at certain sins and instilling fear into those who struggle in those issues who fear of being subjected to such ridicule. They may laugh with you for fear of being rejected yet secretly hold hearts heavily ladened with guilt. How are they supposed to be vulnerable if you snear at the very thing that plagues them most?
Do you understand the extent of what we've done with our 'mere' words?
And I realized that though other Christians may look down on me for what I've done, I learned that God truly takes me with all my fears and failures giving me acceptance and hope. He reminds me of my mistakes and knocks me off the 'holier than thou' pedestal before I try to climb on it to cast judgment on everyone else. Honestly, I find it extremely difficult to open up to Christians because I'm afraid they'll judge me- don't tell me that I'm just not trusting. I hear what people say in church and it makes me want to hide from everyone.
There is good in the broken:
Who is better to help the alcoholic than the one who conquered the power of wine? Who is better to help the struggling anorexic than one who has gone through eating problems and conquered?
Who is better to help the abused than the one who suffered from being abused themself?
We always said that God uses the broken to heal the broken. How true it is! Yet we lack the understanding. So let us come with humbled hearts, acknowledging our own downfalls, lay down our pride and come to Him with the confidence knowing that He will accept us as we are.
17 Comments:
I like this post a lot. :)
Without first presenting the holiness of God, there is no salvation, and Christ's accomplishments are nothing. It is proper to see sins as they are - despicable to God. All this so-called 'love' language is often disguised arrogance and rebellion against the notion of the wrath of God.
Just thoughts here...
If I am not comfortable with people judging me, is the source of that comfort an unresolved sin inside of me? It is more loving that these people tell you what they see. If they are wrong, then you shouldn't feel uncomfortable about it.
Honestly I cannot write everything about God, sin and holiness- I just assumed that was already agreed upon (and stylistically speaking it sounds tighter if I just focus on one thing anyway). The post was specifically looking at the grace of god and NOT in what you say is a 'so-called 'love' language'. It definitely is not arrogance and rebellion- it is understanding of God's forgiveness (and not taking advantage of it).
yeah chiz i agree. i think she's addressing unfounded judgementalism, either because it's just untrue or it's judgement of the pharisee-ical type against the likes of the woman people wanted to stone (which jesus told us to put aside because we don't have such authority, being sinners also). this type of judgementalism falls into the "you shouldn't feel uncomfortable about it" category. but oftentimes it is easier said than done. haha your thoughts are a lot easier to understand after reading "knowing god" by packer.
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@Sam
By 'love language', I was referring to the downplaying of significance of condemnation and judgments, all under the nameplate of 'love' (and may I now add, grace).
I wasn't directing my comment against the concept of being accepted by God's love at all. Rather, I was trying to make a comment about the 'judgmentalism' (as Andrew put it) you are denouncing.
The 'discomfort' idea was what I was trying to bring out. I tend to think that any discomfort I feel when people judge me is due to some deeper internal issues. That's why it is more important to fix that first, rather than being angry at the people making those judgments. I don't really think 'unfounded judgmentalism' is supposed to hurt us if there isn't something wrong with ourselves in the first place.
Personally I don't think that this state of mind is possible in this life, but it is something to keep in mind.
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@Andrew
I don't know about Packer's 'Knowing God'. If my thoughts are hard to understand, it is probably because I am not good at writing clearly. Currently learning...
I find that Christians are either:
1) Overly judgmental thus being blind to their own faults or somehow deflecting their own sins by focusing on other people's issues (using the illustration in Matthew 7).
2)State of indifference/passive/ fear of confrontation.
It's hard to be firm and loving at the same time. I am not watering down Scripture: you cannot dilute the harshness of not following God. If you aren't a Christian despite being a 'good person', yes you'll go to hell. Yes we are all sinners from the beginning- can I say technically it's not our fault since we did not eat from the tree? But like Skylar in 'Good Will Hunting', you just have to deal with it. They ate from the tree and now we all must take responsibility for their actions meaning we all must cling to the Truth; continuing to walk with God daily.
What I am saying is that I see a lot of people make sarcastic comments or joke around about specific sins which are actually dividing the body of Christ up- how do you know if a person in that youth group is not struggling from that same sin that you are laughing at? It creates a fear within them and prevents them from opening up. Moreover, their intentions for bringing these sins to light are not to expose them and strengthen the church but for the sake of a laugh or to condemn in ways that do not help build up the body of Christ. In all, the purpose of judging has become a self glorification- to feel more 'holy' than your fellow Christian rather than actually trying to understand those internal issues that they struggle with. Of course with that said, there are times when rebuking is necessary (2 Tim 4:2). It's easy to just breeze through external actions/appearances and judge them by how they act without really looking at the causes for them to act they way they do. It's like the excerpt I posted from Eldredge's 'Wild at Heart'- if I just accused any guy of looking at pornography because they want sex- that's rather a simplistic answer to a more complex, deep issue on validation and identity. Still, looking at pornography is wrong yet at least I understand where they are coming from and from that 'I' can help them resolve issues on passivity or whatever.
In the end, judging people must be taken with great care and consideration as to not isolate people from one another but used in love to encourage and correct, striving to build one another up.
good job, sam.
to judge is for god.
to evaluate is for man.
judgement implies authority, which only god has.
if we judge, we are assuming an authority higher than man. we have no right to condemn anybody.
to evaluate is to discern between good and evil in order to encourage and build up.
so..judgement is evaluate + authority/holier-than-thou status.
oh and chiz..keep up the learning =P
i agree that "it is more important to fix that first, rather than being angry at the people making those judgments" because we should be aware of the log in our own eye first. and yeah, we don't know why the other people would be making these comments, maybe they have problems of their own and as a result are acting out at the expense of others. hurting people hurt people so we need to first see if we're jumping to conclusions and judging ("something wrong with ourselves in the first place" as you put it) before we know the whole story.
good discussion ppl.
One more thing. I kind of disagree with both of you in terms of fixing the issue first rather than being angry at the people making those judgments. I'm not saying it's warranted to feel resentment against others- which can also be a cause for division. Personally I think part of the healing comes from telling/confessing to others yet if the person doesn't feel comfortable with sharing amongst Christians who they find judgmental it becomes difficult for them to completely resolve their 'issues'. I can see how this creates a well of anger/frustration within the person who knows that God has forgiven them yet needs to share with someone in order to put their past behind them but cannot seem to find a trustworthy fellow Christian to confide in. I think to say 'resolve your own issues first' before 'getting angry at others judgmental ways'- these seemingly 'cause and effect' method actually go hand in hand.
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@Sam
I agree that 'Christians' are more prone judge insensitively and perhaps even joking about certain sins, but they tend to be the weaker and immature ones who can't distinguish the will of God and love others in accordance to it. Deflecting attention from their own sins, they continue to sin.
We can talk all day long about weak Christians, but they are just something we are going to have to live with. However, in judging these Christians for their judgmental behavior, would I not be doing the same thing they do, if I do not resolve to correct my own issues with God and instead blame them for my lack of progress?
Now, I am not denying the importance of accountability, but I want to emphasize that since each person is accountable to God as an individual, they need to deal their issues on their own accord, regardless of how other people look down upon them.
If anyone cannot accept the fact that the death of Jesus covers all of their sins, they have not yet understood what it means to be a child of God. The scriptures are both clear and sufficient on this issue, and that alone should be sufficient as the sure foundation of their faith.
I don't really know how to deal with these judgmental people, but I will at least do my best be at peace with them. Anger isn't going to solve anything.
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= On Eldridge =
I hate anything that He writes simply because I know He has horrible theology, and is therefore dead wrong on almost everything that has to do with God. Lets just say that 'Wild at Heart' is rather 'artistically' crafted. I personally went up to his chapter on the account of creation and dropped it promptly afterwards because I couldn't stand it anymore. My advice to you is: take what he says with a grain of salt.
Link to Reformed Christian reviews on Eldridge
Andrew if you end up checking out the links, Reformed = Calvinist, just so you are informed.
Okay so here's my take on all this.
Essentially we are accountable to God and not Man. I agree with that however I wouldn't dismiss those who are judgmental are 'weak Christians'. Actually many of my thoughts on all this was taken as an observer of being in youth groups and the several years I've been at RHCBC. I think it comes more from immaturity and lack of experience and understanding in the world- or they're just plain insensitive.
In terms of Eldredge, when I first read it I got slightly annoyed at how you used the word 'hate'. Sorry, if one uses that word, it evokes strong feelings as a defense against the person using it. But setting aside my own opinions to see your side of it, I gave Eldredge the benefit of the doubt and looking into your distaste in his writing, I looked up those links you sent me. Er I'm not sure if I had it right but I only found one or two sites that had beef with Eldredge. And I read the comments and everyone is split into either loving or hating him. I agree that 'Wild at Heart' and 'Captivating' are artistically crafted- I think it appeals more to the heart and culture rather than solid theology that you are used to reading.
However, in saying this, I don't think he's dead wrong either. If a book becomes a best seller among Christians, I think there has to be some truth in what he says. I know we have to be careful not to surround ourselves by people who will say things we want to hear but with sound doctrine(2 Tim 4:3-4), personally I enjoyed both of those books and I found them to hold much truth. They are books that speak to the heart more with less... factual/theological issues.
And this is where I have a lot of...not anger but frustration against a lot of theology/Christian books etc.
I was actually going to write a post on this pertaining to those who rely a lot on theology books over scripture. I hope Andrew won't mind, but I stayed up too late last night for my own good so I'm going to put an excerpt of my email to him here:
You see, I think that is flawed thinking when you rely more on books than the Bible (that is if based on the assumption you do more Christian text/theology reading versus Scripture). My teacher used the analogy of a map- you cannot really understand a birds eye view map of NYC until you actually yourself navigate around the city. The map is an interpretation of a geographical area- it is not necessarily correct to the minutest detail. It does not tell you how many people reside on Fifth Avenue. It does not tell you what stores are there, places where you can eat and how many trees are lined alongside the sidewalk. Similary this parallel runs through reading Bible vs. Christian text. When you rely more on other people to 'enlighten' you on Biblical text, you are basically reading a map of their own interpretation of certain issues- a secondhand account- filtered (or whatever you choose to call it) while the Bible gives a whole spectrum of issues which may not occur to you until you read scripture.
It just annoys me to no end when I read a revered Christian book and two months later, people trash it as 'junk' and 'unbiblical'. It's true that theology is fashion- it comes in and out, one thing becomes trendy and then it dies. It really pisses me off because I then get confused and as a result, do not really want to read anymore books. First I'm told Joshua Harris is right and then now it's Henry Cloud. Then 'Captivating' comes in and takes RG Mitchells by a storm and now we're trying to dismiss it as pure fluff. I will defend 'Captivating' because I'm a girl (yes I play the gender card) and I've even had my non Christian roommates read it and they all agreed with the basic three points of desire. There are some things I do disagree but they're really small things concerning the historical basis of beauty. I do not think Elredge is dead wrong either- I think he just speaks from a more cultural standpoint as opposed to theological (whatever that means now).
In saying this, everyone has their own interpretation of the Bible be it Eldredge's more artistic means or David Miller's meanderings, Henry Cloud, C.S. Lewis, Chesterton etc. In the end we can't rely on these books to give us sound doctrine- they can guide but humans are flawed thus flawed thinking (don't kill me- I'm not saying CS Lewis is wrong but hey, he's human too- anything is debatable). I know Tolkien, one of his partners in crime, disagreed with a lot of things he wrote.
I have no conclusion to this and my 'logic' and 'arguments' may be waaay off the mark. You may be thinking "that girl has some serious theological issues to rethink" but I think we all must try to discern what is God-ordained. The post I wrote I can say confidently holds much truth because what I personally experienced transcends all 'book reading' I've done.
Okay I'm going before someone kills me- gotta start on fashion drawing.
I was probably too harsh to say that those Christians are in fact weak Christians. However, those are undoubtedly 'weaknesses'.
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= On Eldridge =
Thinking back now, I ended up reading more of 'Wild at Heart' than that chapter on creation, but everything else he wrote was based on his view of God and how one should emulate his life based on that interpretation of God. Eldridge's view of God is bad enough that academics wouldn't hesitate to label it as heresy and not Christian.
A book labeled as Christian and is a nation's best buy is no indication that it is fundamentally correct. The Purpose Driven Life is another example of this. I also want to point out that a lot of the 'emergent' churches are mega churches (2000+ attendance). 'Wild at Heart' is certainly not a 'revered Christian book', and hopefully never will be.
Using the analogy of maps, there are certainly better maps than others. While good maps do not have to be very precise, but they at least should be accurate. Books like 'Wild at Heart' try to be too precise and end up inaccurate. Now which map would you rather use?
It seems that you believe that your experiences of God transcend theology - even theology rooted in scripture. You are not alone to emphasize this idea of 'ongoing revelation'.
I have exams right now so I don't have time to talk about stuff like this detail, because I really don't know enough. In addition to that my faith isn't really quite up there yet for me to be even talking about stuff like this. Everything is too theoretical right now. It is better if you confirm what I am claiming with someone else. I certainly do not claim to be accurate on the resolution of these issues.
I agree with what you said about 'Purpose Driven Life'- I got bored with the entire book. It's slow and yeah I never finished it. However whatever Christian book that is widely accepted I think there has to hold some truth in them- perhaps they're a bit shaky in some areas but I do believe 'Purpose Driven Life' has valid points that should be considered.
I don't understand what part of 'Wild at Heart' you say is incorrect. You probably know better than I do.
I don't think your analogy with the maps really jives because maps overall give you only a single perspective on things. A subway map is not geographically correct (look at the London transit one- everything is horribly warped). You use certain maps for certain things according to its design. 'Wild at Heart' may address cultural issues while- I don't know- Henry Cloud addresses issues of dating. Those books are supposed to guide you yet ultimately one has to look into the Bible as the 'ultimate' map which addresses all things and designed for guidance in every facet of life.
In terms of experience, you cannot say you've been to 'Markham' by examining a map of York Region. You have to be weaving throughout the streets to get a total understanding of the place itself. That's where understanding and experience surpass mere knowledge and what I label as 'theology'. I don't really understand your definitions of 'precision' and 'accuracy' because if you're precise then how can you be inaccurate?
I don't want this to come off as a challenge but if you think Eldredge is wrong, as a guy, why is it that pornography is such a seductive temptation for men? Is it really just simply because they're more visual or is it just plainly they like sex. Because if it is, then why is it so difficult for them to stop? Or is Eldredge right in saying it's a deeper, more complex issue: fear of rejection?
I don't know why Christians can get so nasty when criticizing books. Turns me off from reading anything beyond the Bible.
Okay Andrew just sent me two critical reviews on both books. I agree that perhaps that the Eldredges were too 'human centered' though I did get a sense of nitpickiness. They criticize them for making it sound like the woman deserves the love of God however I think they already assume this is for the mature christian woman who has already read many christian books before. It's all about audience and who they are trying to target and I think their focus is on people who have been Christian for a while hence the beginning where they ask if the readers are tired of worthless Christian books on femininity. Similarly, my post assumed that one knew about the holiness of God etc. I think to all these critics I'd say 2 Timothy 2:23-24. STOP QUARRELLING ABOUT WORDS. Yeesh.
Sorry, I took the precise vs accurate definitions from high school physics.
Take for example a shooting range. The accuracy of the shots is measured by the proximity of the hits to the actual target. The precision of the shots is measured by proximity of the hits relative to each other. You have to be precise if you want to be accurate, but precision does not necessarily indicate accuracy.
* * *
The issue about Eldridge is definitely not a foolish, ignorant controversy the critics stirred up for fun. The purpose of the epistles of Paul is to address heresy and theological issues of his day, such as the deity and bodily resurrection of Jesus. These critics are doing the same in being critical of bad theology.
If any philosopher starts off with the wrong foundations, I would have serious doubts about the accuracy of the resulting conclusions, regardless of what they claim. For instance, consider the meditations of Descartes or the monads of Leibniz. If the method fails, the conclusion is meaningless. Hence, I do not find it necessary to even consider the validity of his conclusions.
Mature Christians may have use for books like this, but for weak Christians like me, this is a book to avoid at least for now.
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